John Pfaff (1913 - 1999) Interview
September 17, 1991

I: This is Chuck Sikkenga interviewing Mr. John Pfaff for the Tri Cities Museum. Take 2 on September 17th 1991 .  

R: What do we have, right 45 minutes, that’s quite a while.

I: Yeah.

R: Okay, let’s see, are you going to start all over or do you want to just pick it up there?

I: Start from right here again.

R: Okay. I guess I said my name, didn’t I? My name is John Pfaff. Are we ready?

I: Yup, you were born in 19….

R: I was born August 22, 1913 in Grand Haven, Michigan at 532 Pennoyer Avenue . In 1860, my grandfather, Charles J. Pfaff moved his family, which consisted of his wife, Gertrude, three sons, John, Fred and Charlie and one daughter, Gertrude from Saugatuck, Michigan to Grand Haven. And he accepted the job as the first marshall of the city of Grand Haven . He built a home on Water Street , which is now Harbor Avenue . He was in the first 100 block of Water Street  and he also owned property in the 200 block on Water Street . Of course, at that time all the activity of Grand Haven was centered on the harbor with the boat and the fishing industries.

R: My grandfather had an insurance agency in Grand Haven. He also had a branch office in Grand Rapids . And I can recall riding on the interurban streetcar with him to Grand Rapids on occasions. We’d board the interurban in Grand Haven and then we’d have to change cars at the junction which was close to Nunica and we transferred to the    Muskegon  car and take that car on into Grand Rapids . In the wintertime the conductor would have to heat the cars with a potbellied stove which he’d feed coal to every once and a while to keep us warm. My grandfather always cautioned me about watching out for the third rail. Of course, there were two rails that the car ran on and the third rail provided the electricity to operate the car. And, of course, you had to be careful, if you stepped on it you could be severely burned or possibly killed. We’d also on occasions take the interurban to Fruitport during our annual Presbyterian picnic. We’d all get on the interurban and ride it to Fruitport and back. Also during the summertime we’d ride the dummy park car out to the Highland Park Pavilion and out there we’d rent a bathhouse and maybe a bathing suit and we’d go swimming for the afternoon. And the fare as I remembered it was 5 cents out there and 5 cents back. And the bathhouse would cost you 5 cents to rent.

I: And how long would the trip to Grand Rapids be?

R: Well the trip to Grand Rapids would be approximately one hour. Also, this park car would travel out to what they called the Indian Village and make its turnaround out there and then back to town. In the spring of the year they always had to get a crew, about 25, 50 men to shove the sand off of the tracks. ‘Cause all winter long that sand would blow and it would cover the tracks, so it was quite a job to get those tracks cleared every spring.

I: Would there be a dummy line, did that use a third rail too or did they have the wire?

R: They had a wire, overhead wire, which would be a little safer for in town and even the interurbans as they came into a town, they’d switch from a third rail to the overhead wire to go through towns. Summertime, there was always about 10 of us fellows, we’d get together and we’d camp for one or two weeks on the north shore. The Coast Guard were always very helpful if we signaled them, they would row the boat across, pick us up and take us over so we didn’t have to walk way around through Ferrysburg to get to our campsite. We’d camp about a mile up the shore. At that time there were no houses over there outside of Sole Cottage which was located right in back of the Coast Guard station. So we pretty much had the whole north shore to ourselves for the summertime. Also during the summer we would attend the Chittaqua(?) performances and they’d set up a tent on the site of the present hospital and put on these plays. Also they would have dog and pony shows on that site, as well as out the east end of town where they had some large fields out there. Also, for several years during the summer they had a riding stable across from the entrance to the cemetery and we’d rent these horses as I remember a dollar an hour and we’d ride through Duncan’s Woods and also Greenhill which is the site of the present high school. We’d also ride out    Sheldon Road  and, of course, at that time there was no paving. It was all strictly a dirt road. And it was a beautiful spot through there. They had a lot of maple trees and we really used to enjoy it a great deal.

During the summer kids would always follow the ice wagons to swipe a few pieces of ice to suck on. They had the Spring Lake Ice Company and also the National Ice Company that peddled ice in Grand Haven. I think that was a Natural Ice Company, not National. I can remember my mother would post an ice card in the window, it was a square card, and one side would mark 25 pounds and the other side 50 pounds, 75 pounds, a hundred pounds. And whatever size cake of ice you wanted, you’d put that card so that that amount would show at the top of the card. And the iceman would deliver it up to your icebox. And during the winter months, the men would cut ice from    Spring   Lake  and store it in large warehouses with sawdust thrown around between the box and so forth. Also during the summer they had Thompson’s Jackie Band, it was made up of local fellows and they would play concerts in   Central Park at a bandstand there and we kids used to play on the two large iron cannons they had in the park. I imagine they were either from the Spanish-American War or Civil War cannons. And then during World War II they had scrap drives and the city donated the cannons to those scrap drives. Also we had a fellow in town that we’d call him Blind Ed, he was a Negro and he had a Victrola on a cart and he would park it along side of Hostetter’s News Agency and he’s play music. And he’d have a tin cup with some pencils that if you would put in a nickel or a dime you could help yourself to a pencil. Also, the Salvation Army on Saturday and Sunday nights would have a little band concert, along with a religious meeting there on Hostetter’s corner. Then on occasions during a summer we’d have what we called, a snake oil hustler come to town and he would sell this bottled patent medicine that would cure all ills. I remembered he’d charge a dollar per bottle or two bottles for a dollar and a half, there bottles for two dollars. He’d also have a large kerosene lamp on his cart which directed the attention. Maybe somebody would play a trumpet or a horn or need a base drum and it seemed to be quite a popular thing during its day. I belonged to a Boy Scout Troop #1, it was a Presbyterian Church group. Dick VanHolden was the scoutmaster. And in the summer we’d have our camp, camping out at    Camp   McCarthy  . Later on they named that    Camp   Kirk  .

I spent a lot of time on watching horses being shoed at the DeGlopper’s Blacksmith Shop. That was located in the second block of    Second Street  in back of Hostetter’s, that would be north of Hostetter’s. Right in back of Hostetter’s they had Zellma’s Difficult Repair Shop. It was primarily a bicycle sales and repair shop. He was also a handyman to repair anything else that you might needed to have fixed. Next to the Difficult Repair Shop was Shaftsma’s Harness Shop and he’d make horse harnesses and most other, a lot of other leather goods.

I: This is all headed north on Second Street ?

R: North on Second in back of Hostetter’s. Then, kids in those days, we used to make our scooters and I can remember we’d take an old pair of roller skates and get a chunk of 2 by 4, maybe three, four feet in length. We’d fasten those skates, one on the front, one on the back, then we’d get an orange crate and nail it on the top and then put another little piece of wood across the top for handles. And that would be our scooter. And some would fix them up kind of elaborate, we’d get an old tin can and cut the front out and put a candle in it and we could ride them at night. And it was kind of a popular toy, you might say in those days. And we also did a lot of roller skating and I can remember, especially in the spring of the year we used to have big parties in   Central Park – roller skate parties. Seems so half the town would be there, we’d have a lot of fun. Also, one summer, it was 1932, it was right after I graduated from high school, we just purchased a, I think it was a 1927 Buick sedan, it was seven passenger sedan. And we were kind of riding around town trying it out and the alarm went out that there was a robbery at the People’s Bank. So we tear over there and sure enough the bank had been robbed and there was a little gunfire and I think there are still some bullet holes in the building across the street that used to be the Masonic Temple, it is now Oake’s Insurance Company and you can still see the bullet holes on the side door. I think it was Ted Bolt that had a gun and shot at the robbers. And they confiscated a car from a Mrs. Bonoma and she had her baby in the backseat of the car, his name was Norm. And the robbers started to make their getaway in this car and they had, of course, had several bags of money which they were throwing the money out in the streets. So the kids would run out there and get it and keep the cars from chasing them, the police fro chasing them. But anyway, they finally abandoned the car and neither Norm or his mother were hurt. But we had heard that the car was out on    Sheldon Road  , out quite a ways, so we drove out that way and there was an abandoned car out there in one field. I don’t know whether it belonged to the robbers or not, but ah, it was quite a lot of excitement at that time.

I: Yeah, I guess.

R: We had a Mr. Clarence Buhl, that’s spelled Buhl. And he had a [drain or dray] business and he had about oh six or eight horses and his barn was located on Sheldon Road about a block south of Grant Street, right on the corner there. I can’t think of what the name of that street is or but anyway it is a block south of Grant. And he lived across the street and he had this big barn on the other side of the road and with the horses in it and he also dug basements for new homes. In those days they dug basements with a horse and a big scoop on the back of the horse or that the horse pulled. He also had a horse drawn funeral hearse along with what they called hacks for the people to ride in, in those days. And I can remember when one of my grandfathers passed away, this funeral, I was pretty young at the time, but anyway they had Mr. Buhl and had his hearse and we rode in this hack out to the cemetery. His son, Roy, was about my age and I was fairly friendly with him and he owned a Shetland pony and buggy and it was a great deal when he used to take me for a ride out    Sheldon Road  in this buggy. We used to have a lot of fun. I also remember the cement and pulp boats used to come in to Robbin’s dock during the summer months. And they would unload them and store the pulp in what used to be the A&P … Company building on, right on the highway.

I: Yeah.

R: They’d store the bales of pulp and I worked on em several years. And the cement boats, that was a real undesirable job. You had to go down in the hole of the boat and you had a partner and you’d each help each other lift a bag of cement. Sometimes it would be so dusty down there you couldn’t even see your partner. But we’d unload these boats and they’d ship this cement all over the state of    Michigan  . During the winter months we used to do a lot of ice skating, what they call the boom. That’s where, it is on the island where the municipal power plant is located. And we’d get a gang and clean off the snow there and Eddy Akims was the caretaker. He was hired by the city to kind of oversee the whole operation. And he’d have a big bonfire there to help keep us warm and we used to have a lot of fun there ice skating. And we’d have horse drawn sleigh rides. I think it was Claus Dykehouse who had the big sleigh. And maybe 15, 20 of us would ride uptown, we’d have these sleigh rides, then go over to somebody’s house afterwards and have cocoa and cake or cookies. And I can recall that there was a real bad fire on Five Mile Hill. Now that is where the city water tanks are located. That would be across the road from the cemetery, it would be north. That whole ridge up there and that we always called, Five Mile Hill and they had a real bad fire there and they announced it at school and some of us older fellows were allowed to get out of school and go and help fight the fire. And it was quite an experience.

I: How did you help fight the fire?

R: Well, we had bags, burlap bags, stamp it out that way and they’d put water, we’d soak em, wet the bags and we’d just pound the fire the best we could. But it pretty well burned it over. Then also I can remember that    Akeley   College  , that was located where the city hall is now in that area. And it was an all-girl’s school, Episcopal school. And the girls around   4 o’clock every afternoon,   5 o’clock would take a walk as a group and they all wore the white petties and kind of bloomer pants and they’d walk around the streets of Grand Haven just for the exercise. But it was always quite a site.

I: Get crowds of young guys following them around I’m sure.

R: Yeah, I’m sure, all ogling them. Another strange thing I recall, it wasn’t unusual for hobos to come to your backdoor and ask for a handout, food of some kind. Now we lived at 532 Penier which wasn’t too far from the railroad tracks. And I imagine they got off the trains somewhere down there, they’d come up there and they’d ask if they could have a sandwich or roll or piece of bread or something. And during the spring, I can remember in the post office downtown they’d have shipment of chickens, chicks, little chicks and you’d walk in the post office and you’d hear all these chicks peeping. It was quite a sound. One time I had an ulcerated tooth and Dr. Hoffma who was a local general practitioner had to lance it. And the next day he came and he gave me a little flowerpot with a, it was almost like a twig, a spruce tree in it. And I planted that in the front yard and it grew and it grew and grew until it got taller than the house. And I think about 10 years ago they finally had to cut it down, it was so large. But, Dr. Hoffma, he was quite a naturalist, he raised Christmas trees, he had farms out there. And I thought it was quite nice of him to do that for me. And then we had what they called the boom guards pump. Now that was located on the corner of Fourth and    Fulton Street  right where the    Masonic   Temple  is now, across the street, right on that corner. And it was an excellent cold water, well water pump. And I guess what impressed me most, they had a community tin drinking cup. Everybody used the same cup, it was hanging on the pump. And if you were up by there why you could stop and pump a cupful and have it, that was quite a deal.

R: Then every Saturday afternoon, it seems so half the town would attend the Robin Hood Theater. I was a little kid and it was right next to the Old Kent Bank. And, of course, there was Wild West pictures on Saturday afternoon, Hoot Gibson and Tom Mix and Buck Rogers and a few of those. And Dick Rydles would play the bartola(?), it was like an organ down there and he was a crackerjack at it. And Charlie Davis was the manager of the theater. And any kid create a disturbance down there, leave it to Charlie, he’d go right down there and get them by the nab of their neck and march them right out, they were kicked out.

I: For disturbances …

R: Oh not too often, no, because they didn’t want to get kicked out. And Charlie would get your sooner or later. But ah, that place would just be packed every Saturday afternoon. Then on Tuesdays I would kind of talk my folks into giving me enough money so I could go down, this would be Tuesday evenings and go to the Robin Hood where they’d have a serial going on, that was every Tuesday. So, you wouldn’t see the whole picture for maybe a month before you could see all the chapters of it. But that was on a rare occasion that they’d let me go out at night to go down there and watch those serials. Right next to the theater was Viewings Popcorn Stand and, of course, you’d get a nickel bag of popcorn and take it in the theater with you. Then many times in the evening a mother wouldn’t want to cook, so she’d give me a quarter and ask me to go down to Dornbos’ Fish House and you could get a quarters worth of smoked chub and that would be enough for three of us for supper, real good. My father owned the Grand Haven Baking Company. He started it along with two partners in 1900. And that was located at 214    Washington  , I think there is a shoe store in there now if I’m not mistaken. I used to work there during the summer after I got old enough to be able to do a few chores and I’d wash pots and pans, swept the floor, I had to wrap bread, fry donuts and make some minor deliveries. And then on the Saturday before the Robin Hood Theater would open I’d sell candy. And my dad had quite a candy business there. And I’d earn enough money so I could go across and go to the movie afterwards.

I: Now bakeries were more of a general all-purpose kind of establishment in those days?

R: Yes. It was a pretty good sized bakery. He had, of course, originally they did the delivery with horse and wagons and there was a large, large barn in back of the bakery. As I remembered there were three stalls for horses and a big hayloft and he had a wagon that they’d deliver bread and pastries during the summer months and then they had a sleigh that they’d use during the winter months. And I frequently would go with the drivers, make the route with them. And they’d peddle to the local grocery stores and then they’d go over the bridge to    Spring   Lake  and Ferrysburg. But I can remember going across the bridges in the wintertime when it was storming and, of course, we had the sleigh, but it had doors on it, so we were all inside, kept warm that way.

I: Now would the bakery sell most of its goods directly or would it like ship things out to stores where people buy? Say if somebody wanted to buy a loaf of bread, would they buy it directly from your bakery or

R: You could either way.

I: would your bakery sell it to a grocery story and people would buy their bread at the outlet?

R: We had a retail outlet, some part of was all retail. And so I think I remember he had two clerks, ladies in there selling. And then, of course, he’d also sell these to stores, all the grocery stores were customers. And at one time, he was shipping bread on the train as far as   South Chicago . They’d load it on the train at night and they’d peddle it that way. So he had quite a business there. Then I can remember again when I was quite young I used to go with my dad when he’d deliver bread to the car ferries. See all the car ferries were coming in to Grand Haven at that time. And he had all the car ferry business and we’d go down there and I always liked to go with him because we’d go in the kitchen and generally the car ferry cook would give me a sandwich or some little cookie or something there, I used to get a kick out of it. Then in the wintertime I guess it wasn’t to infrequent where the car ferries would get stuck in the ice. And, of course, they’d run out of food and my dad would have to deliver bread to them and he’d use my toboggan and pull it across the ice to the boats. Of course, I presume that ice was three to 10 feet thick, so it held him, but that was always kind of a scary operation.

I: Yeah.

R: I always remember and I think most of the older people around Grand Haven remember on Saturdays that was cream puff day in the bakery. And they’d make these cream puffs with real whipped cream and when I mean they were filled. And they’d sell them for 10 cents apiece and he used to sell them by the dozens, real popular. Then in 1926 my dad sold the bakery and he bought a 20 acre grape farm on the outskirts of    Spring   Lake  . That was on    Lake Avenue  and just before you get to the Lloyd’s    Bayou   Bridge  on the right-hand side. That was a grape farm. And, of course, and then in the winter months we had to trim the grape vines. So we had four stalks, two on the lower, two uppers. And then the early spring we’d have to tangle foot those stalks and the wires that held the stalks up to keep the cutworms from eating the buds and the grapes. We had to tie the grapes up to the wires, the stalks up there. Of course then during the summer months we had to do the fertilizing, cultivating and then we put handles on the grape baskets, we’d buy the baskets, but they had no handles on them and so we’d have to nail those handles on them. And then in the fall, primarily in September, why that was when we picked the grapes and then my job was to nail the covers on the baskets and deliver to the Robin’s dock in Grand Haven. We used the bakery truck for that. And then they’d ship these grapes to    Chicago  and    Milwaukee  and of course, there were a lot of grape farms in those days throughout    Spring   Lake  and they’d all bring their grapes down there and it was quite a sight. And it just smelled wonderful, all those grapes down there in that warehouse. And the boats always left at   10 o’clock at night, so we had to have our shipment down there ready by 10. And then they’d load it on either the    Alabama  or the    United States  and they’d go over to    Milwaukee  ,    Chicago  . So the first year that we lived in    Spring   Lake  , I was going to high school in Grand Haven, so I’d ride the interurban back and forth. And then the operator of the interurban ceased operating, can’t remember whether it was about 1927 or 1928. Then for another year or two they ran a bus, the urban line ran a bus. And so we could take the bus. And then that went out of business, so then it was either hitchhiking, riding a bike or walking. And I can remember I rode the last interurban out of Grand Haven. My mother drove me over to Grand Haven and I got on the interurban and rode it back to Spring Lake and then, of course, it went on to the, I’d guess you’d call it the bone yard in Fruitport. But it was kind of a sad thing when the interurbans ceased to operate, ‘cause a lot of people depended on them for transportation.

I: Yeah, I imagine so. There still weren’t many cars on the road?

R: Not too many, there were some, but not a lot. And they weren’t too dependable either. The popular dancehalls at the time were, of course, the Barn, that was located on    Water Street  , it was owned, operated by Nat Robins. And Victor Peterlonus was the manager. And the Barn burned in 1940, somewhere’s early ‘40’s I think.

I: Now was the Barn, that draw pretty general crowd or was that mainly a younger crowd there?

R: Oh just general, young, older, yeah it was a beautiful dance floor and they’d have Frank Jones Orchestra played quite a few years. They’d have some name bands come in too. They had a huge globe in the center of the dance floor that revolved around and was all mirrors and went different colors. It was terrific. And then they had a little soda bar there that you could get sodas or ice cream, sandwiches and then they’d give you setups, there was no liquor in those days, but the fellows would bring their own liquor and we’d serve them a glass of ice for it. But ah, that was really a very fine dancehall. Then they also, at that time, had the Highland Park Pavilion. And that was a very popular dance place also. And Jimmy Kulkoski played out there quite frequently and he was from    Muskegon  , had an orchestra up here from    Muskegon  and he played there. They also had some name bands. So I think the Barn, the    Highland Park  were kind of rivals in the dance crowd.

I: Was dancing one of the most popular attractions in those days?

R: I would say it was, yes. Yeah. Then we also had the Fruitport Pavilion which was very popular, Frank Lockage played up there and also big name bands. And then we had Morse Barn, that was located on    Mercury Drive  , we called it the    Pottawattamie Road  , but now it is    Mercury Drive  .

I: How far out on Mercury was that?

R: About I’d say halfway. I can just visualize it, but I would say about halfway from Grand Haven out to the river.

I: Mile wise ah,

R: Oh yeah it was a huge barn. And more like barn dances and square dancing and that sort of thing. Then they also had Jack Jungles, that was in    Robinson   Township  . And that was a real popular one, it was right on the river. Then they had the Oakland Ballroom and that was located on    Seventh Street  , right across from the present skating rink.

I: Okay.

R: There was a building and the upstairs was, ah, they had the dances. And then another popular dancing place was the Women’s Club building. And that was more for the younger groups, we’d get together and go over there and we had orchestras and nice time. And the Demolays were quite active in those days and the    Masonic   Temple  , I’ve been there up to the third floor, nice ballroom up there. And we’d have dances up there. I belonged to the Demolays and we used to have some great dances. And, of course, the Spring Lake Country Club was very nice too.

R: I played in the high school band under direction of M. F. Richards and just a little sidelight there, Mr. Richards was here, I think, for about 13 years and recently he wrote an autobiography and there was a little article about it in the Tribune. And I managed to get a hold of a copy from Harold Fisher and I read it and I was very impressed with it. So I got a hold of Mr. Richard’s address and I wrote him a letter and he wrote me a very nice letter back, along with an autographed copy of his autobiography. And I thought that was real nice of him. He was 91 on the 7th of this month. But his handwriting was excellent and everything was just fine.

I: Sure.

R: Yes he was still real sharp. So our first uniforms of the    Grand   Haven   High School  band were these blue and gold sweatshirts and white duck pants. Then I think it was 1928, we got our first uniforms and they were blue pants and we had a cape inside of it, the lining was gold and the outside was blue. And then we had the caps. So we were pretty elegant then.

I: About how many people were in the band back then?

R: I would say 25, 30 possibly. And we played several concerts, summer concerts in   Central Park . And, of course, we played for all the football games on Saturday afternoons which were held out at the Ferry Field in those days.

I: Okay.

R: And we’d go to the Holland Tulip Festival and the Benton Harbor Blossom Festival and we had contests in    Kalamazoo  and, of course, for our transportation it was all volunteers. I’d ask my folks if I could use their car and I’d take four or five fellows. And to earn the money for the gas, we’d have paper drives. Yeah, we’d earn the money for gasoline for those trips. And we’d play Memorial Day parades and, of course, we’d always have to march, march out to the cemetery and back. Then before the big football games, especially with    Holland  , we’d have a snake dance. And we’d start out at the high school and go downtown and ring around, maybe we’d have a little pep band and then big bonfire, do a little rabblerousing. Then I also have played in the    Spring   Lake  band. That was while I was in high school, we lived in    Spring   Lake  and Mark Sietsma, he was from Ferrysburg and he was the director. He could play coronet and he was one of the old-timers real loud, circus type music. And there must have been, oh maybe 20 of us in that band and we used to have an awful lot of fun. And every week we’d play a concert in the    Spring   Lake   Tourist   Park  , they had a little bandstand there and we’d fight the mosquitoes and play a concert and we had a lot of fun. And I also played in the orchestra which was the high school orchestra and we’d call it the Blue and Gold Revelers. And I think there were about eight of us that band, yeah, around eight of us. And we’d play for social hours up at school once a month after school,   4 o’clock we’d have a social hour for an hour and we’d play for those dances. Results of another orchestra, Bob Smith’s orchestra that would alternate with us in playing, we had a lot of fun. Then, I played with Victor Peter Lonus’s orchestra. Victor Peter Lonus worked for Nat Robins, he was his accountant, he also managed the Barn. But he was a very fine violinist and he got up an orchestra to play around town. We played at the Elks quite a lot and Spring Lake Country Club and it was a real nice orchestra. And then after Peter Lonus bowed out why Louie Horvath took over and again we played at those kind of places around town. And then I played with Ted Moore’s orchestra and we played at the Oakland Ballroom, you remember it was the one across the street from the skating rink.

I: Right.

R: Then we get up to the museum and I don’t know whether you want to get into any of that, but

I: There are a couple of general things, first is about schooling in your youth what that was like?

R: Okay, I think that the new high school if I remember right was built in 1922. Up until that time, it was all in the, what we call, the Central building, that one that burned down. And then in ’22 they had the new high school, so that took four grades, 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th were in the new high school. And all the other eight grades were in to the old Central building. And ah, I don’t know what I could tell you about them. Of course, in those days we had a very fine basketball team. In fact, I think it was in 1932 that we got the Class A Championship in the state of Michigan . Under Coach Corris.

I: Corris, right.

R: And any other questions you could ask me about the school?

I: I want to ask specifically what were expected of students in those days?

R: Well one thing I will say that we had law and order. There was no horsing around, no running in the halls. We had Mr. Olsen was the principal and Mr. Babcock was the superintendent. They were both very, very strict. And they just would grab you by the nave of the neck and in the office you go. If you got chewed out by either one of them you remembered it. So, I will say there was no running and no yelling or any of that carousing in the school. And that I think, I look back I take my hat off to them. At the time we didn’t think too much of it.

I: Right.

R: But, yes, we did our share of skipping school and that, but it was a minimum part of it. I mentioned the band, we used to go on these trips with the band. Never had any problems at all, Mr. Richards had very good control over all the members. So, we had our playground in between the two schools. Of course, after we got in the high school we didn’t have recess or anything like that. But up until then, then we’d have our recess in the morning and afternoon and go out and play on the grounds. Very rarely was there a fight. Once and a while a couple guys would square off, but it didn’t amount to much. Can’t think of anything else that would be of interest there.

I: Another thing I was wondering about was the Depression, how did that affect both the area in general and your life more specifically?

R: It was real rough. Of course, I graduated in ’32, right in the heart of the depression in Grand Haven. I think the Depression started in ’29, but I don’t think it really caught up to us until around the ’31, ’32. And it was real tough. You couldn’t get jobs. Of course, maybe I was one of the fortunate ones, my dad had the bakery and we also had the farm, which I could work on and earn a little money. But, I mentioned the pulp boats and the cement boats, we moved to Grand Haven in 1933 and that’s when I started to work on the pulp boats and the cement boats. And I can remember going around these different factories, big long lines of fellows waiting to get jobs. They give you an application, but you never heard from them. I came up to    Muskegon  , I can remember and went to practically every shop up here and you just couldn’t buy a job in those days. And, of course, they’d give preference to those fellows that, men who had families, children, which is understandable. And that’s when I decided to go into the Army. So in 1933, I had to pull quite a few strings to get into the Army. I had letters from Mr. Babcock, Mr. Olsen, Mr. Richards, and the postmaster, Mr. Olsen, who was a captain in the National Guard. And he knew the family well, so he gave me a letter. Ted Bolton, the bank, I can remember he was bank president, he gave me a letter of recommendation. And um, what I was trying to do was get into Army band.

I: I see.

R: And so the third time he said, alright I’ll put you in G Company first. And then maybe that will attach you to the band. But we don’t have an opening in the band as such. So I said anything, so I was very happy to get that. I remember my pay was $17.35 a month, private’s pay. And, of course, out of that I had to buy my toilet articles, take care of my laundry bills. I got food and all that other was furnished. All the clothing was furnished. So, on that $17.35 a month I bought a car. An old Model A, it was kind of beat up. I think I paid $155 for it or something. But anyway it was so I could get home once and a while. And I was stationed in    Detroit  , Fort Wayne Detroit. And so I was in G Company, but every morning and I would go over to the band and rehearse with the band. And ah, eventually there was an opening. And I got in the band. And then they had another opening as company clerk of the band and I was selected for that job. And that did a lot to further my education. I went to several other clerk schools there, typing, bookkeeping and so forth. And that was a great experience for me being in the Army. I enjoyed it immensely, especially when I look back we had excellent food, it was just terrific. And, of course, we’d have our weekends off, other than once and a while we’d have to play a concert and I also played in their dance orchestra, the band’s dance orchestra. And we had to play for dances for the officers, also for enlisted men. Then I played in another little pickup group, a bunch of us, it was outside of the Army, then we’d go around to some of these three-two beer gardens, that time they had three-two beer. And all we’d do is put a hat out there and they’d drop donations in there and we’d play. So maybe we’d get a dollar apiece a night or something like that. And, of course, in the summertime we’d move to    Camp   Custer  in    Battle Creek  . And we’d have our summer training there. And I remember this one year, I think it was the last year I was in the Army, I was in it for three years. We hiked, marched from    Detroit  to    Camp   Custer  ,

I: How long did that take?

R: 120 miles. And I think we did it, if I remember right, in about 10 days. We’d try to march around 15 to 20 miles a day. But my feet were full of blisters, oh it was terrible. ‘Cause we weren’t in condition, we laid around all winter, you know, and here it was early spring, we marching like that. But, I could get home a little more often when we were at    Camp   Custer  , I didn’t have to go so far. So I’d try to get home a couple times a month on weekends. I could get a weekend pass. But, I truthfully say, I enjoyed my service in the Army at that time, it was real fun.

I: So, when you got back here what did you do?

R: I got married the day after I was discharged. … came to    Detroit  and we got married in    Detroit  and we came back and my first job was at the Story and Clark Piano Company. I had a friend that found another job and he was leaving Story and Clark, so he tipped me off and he said get down there. So I think it was the third day I was home after being discharged I went down there and I saw Mr. Claypeck and he gave me a job, I was fine regulating and worked with Ray Harris. Ray was very helpful in getting me started. And I worked in several departments. I worked, I leaded keys for a while and I installed the actions and I also and I worked down in the mill, and I was scared to death down there. Those machines, in those days they didn’t have too many guards and those planers are going around, you know, I could just look around at all my fellow workers and all of them had a finger or two off, you know, and I could just visualize myself. So I started to look around for something else and I found a job up at Lakey Foundry in the employment office. And I had a friend working in there and he put in a good word for me. So I worked a second shift up there and my job was, I was timekeeper for the pattern shop. I took care of first-aid and I did some posting social security records and then as I say, I worked the second shift, a lot of times somebody wouldn’t show up for work. Then I’d have to go out and get some replacement and we had a list of replacements and we had a company car. But mostly blacks. But at   midnight many times I’d go right in the worst black areas here in    Muskegon  in the Heights and recruit people, never was fearful of, no problems at all. They treated you with a lot of respect. I never had any trouble. And I, Lakey’s I worked, I got laid off up there, it was in ’38 and it was just the tail end of the Depression before the war and things were still kind of slow. So I got a job over in Grand Haven to Woodbe Producers. They made radio cabinets and my job was along with several others, was to roll the grain, when you look at that here this table it has got nice grain on it. Well, we would put that grain on. We’d just get some old fine white pine, no grain at all and we had a roller, we’d roll it on this plate with ink and pick up that grain off this plate and then we’d roll it on here and we’d just get a perfect grain. And they’d put the varnish and everything on the top of it, so in other words, we were fooling the public, letting them think they got a nice piece of grained wood, it was all artificial. Then during that time I kind of worked off and on, they weren’t too busy. And Mr. Richard asked me if I would help him with the band up at the high school. So I was assistant director up there that one year off and on. Not steady, but I helped drill them for the football games and so forth. And I got a job at Water Motor Sales in    Spring   Lake  . Joe Water ah, he had worked for Tillman Auto Company in Grand Haven, and then he decided to go in business for himself and he got, bought out the Spears Motor Car Company in    Spring   Lake  . And it was all Fords. So I worked there for five years until I took care of the books, parts and I also greased cars and took care of the pumps, the gas pumps, took care of that. And, of course, this is where my Army training helped a lot, taking care of the books and that. So, then the war came along and I tried to reenlist and I guess Pearl Harbor was December 7th, and I think January 2nd I went up to Grand Rapids to the recruitment office up there and I took my discharge and everything. I was discharged as a corporal and I said I’d like to reenlist in grade, I would like my old outfit. Well, he says I can’t do anything for you here, he said, I suggest, he said the only thing I can do is just enlist you as a buck private. And I said, gee, I don’t want to go through all that recruit training again. He says, I don’t blame you, but he said, I can’t do anything for you, he said I suggest you go home and wait for the draft board to catch up with you. So until this day I’m still waiting. But I did, I left Water Motor Sales and then I went and worked at Ramsey Corporation in Fruitport in a war plant, they made custom rings for the B-24 bombers. And I was the personnel manager up there. I worked there for nine years, nine and a half years. Then I had an opportunity to go with Keller Tool Company in Grand Haven as an assistant personnel manager. And, of course, that was a lot better because we lived in Grand Haven and this way I could work in the town where I lived. So I got over there and I worked there for 27 years. That’s where I became manager of employee relations when I retired. So that’s pretty much my work history.

I: Were you involved with the pharmacy?

R: No, no, that was strictly Cliff’s.

I: Strictly his.

R: Yeah. After he was discharged from the Service, he went to Ferris and he became a pharmacist. And he worked for Wheeler’s for a while and he had this opportunity to buy out Carl Hecksel, which he did and he was strictly on his own down there. So then I retired from Gardner Damler in 1977. And they called me back twice since I retired for special projects, you know. And then Cooper merged with them, Cooper Tool, Air Tool and, of course, they moved out and they’d called me back six months before they moved out and so I was the last one employed there in Grand Haven, Henry Klukos and myself and he was in charge of maintenance and I had everything else, so Henry and I were the ones that locked the door finally.

I: Okay. Now how did you get involved with starting up the historical society and the museum?

R: Well this goes back and I can’t, I’m sorry to say, remember the year, but Esther Dean Nyland was a school teacher and she was quite involved with history. She liked it of Grand Haven. And she had sort of a historical society of her school kids. Anyway, she got the idea to form a Historical Society of Grand Haven. And she knew the family from way back. Anyway, she asked if we’d join along with maybe a couple dozen other people in Grand Haven. So we had a meeting down in a basement of the Presbyterian Church and we organized down there. So, both my wife and I are charter members. And we started this society and I was the third president. See, Dave Siebold was first president, George Christman was the second and I was the third and I was the fourth, that is president two terms. And during that time every once and a while at our meetings somebody would say, we ought to have a museum. So we all agreed, but nothing was ever done. Well, finally we started accumulating a few things and Ray Swanson was a secretary of our society and he also was the secretary of Masonic Lodge at that time. And he said I’m going to talk to their board of directors and see if we can’t use some of their rooms to store these things that we are accumulating. And because they had this Oake’s building and there were a lot of rooms up there they weren’t using. So they agreed to let us do that, so we started to bring things in. Well then Dr. Mary got into the picture and stuff started to come just like you wouldn’t believe.

I: It hasn’t stopped to this day.

R: No. I know what you mean. So anyway, we’d haul this stuff upstairs, it was all upstairs you know. And ah, we’d try to clean it up the best we could, you know, I can still remember there was an old kerosene heater and that was my project. It was just a little rust and we had steel wool and the rust off of it. Anyway, we had that opened a couple of times for the public to walk through, but it was a mess up there. Everything was piled up on top of each other, it was very unimpressive. Well then I can remember we had a meeting in the basement of the city hall and this question came up again. Why don’t we have a museum? So I finally I stood up. I said I think I’m getting a little sick and tired of hearing this come up all the time. I’m going to put a motion on the floor that we organize a committee and establish a museum. Well this thought came up with this Grand Trunk depot all the time, it came into the picture. So I said, we would form this committee and we’ll investigate the possibility of getting that Grand Trunk depot, converting it into a museum. So, everybody started nodding and yeah, yeah, yeah, so we put it to a vote and, of course, it went through unanimous. And Esther Dean got up and she said I nominate John Pfaff as general chairman and I couldn’t, I couldn’t say anything, yes or no. I felt that I had got up and put the motion on the floor, so I had to carry through, so I said, okay. So anyway, they made me general chairman, so with the job of raising the money, securing the depot, converting it into a museum, so I got busy and appointed different ones on the committee, different committees. Esther Dean, bless her heart, she took on raising the money. And she did a beautiful job of it. That’s when we put out life memberships and all that. She went to these different companies around town and we wrote letters and everything, foundations and the money started to come in. Well, we had a little problem with the city because they wanted to bulldoze that museum down for a parking lot for the … got all parking there. So, then the minute we said we want to make it into a museum, then Marge Boon, I hate to mention names, but anyway it was Marge at this one meeting that, she wanted to make it into a coffeehouse for the kids. She said, I think the kids need a coffeehouse in town. Well, of course, we all got up on our ear and her brother, Cliff, was on the council at the time and so, of course, he was pulling for the museum. Anyway, we had to do a lot of politicking. And we finally got the city, I know I met with John Walhout several times and the city manager and said, well, you know, they want to charge us pretty good rent for it. I said, no, I think it is a community project, $1 a year for rent is sufficient. Anyway, to make a long story short, we finally all compromised on the $1 a year and we could have the Grand Trunk. But I’m getting a little ahead of my story. After we had this meeting where they made me chairman, this was in the spring of the year, it was cold or fall, fall of the year, fall of the year, yeah. Just before Christmas, I guess. Anyway, it was cold and we said let’s go down and see what we’ve got down here, so we got a hold of the key and we went in there and you never saw such a mess all in your life. The dust had accumulated that thick all over everything. There are oh junk pile in there, you wouldn’t believe it. Decorations for the city, piled stuff in there, it was just, it was almost a hopeless task. But anyway, we did we finally rolled up our sleeves, we dot down there and got volunteers and my wife, big, big help on that. She wrote letters and she called up people by the dozens, you know, different organizations like the Girl Scouts and the Boy Scouts to come down and help clean, clean it all up. We got everything cleared out of there, all down to the dump, you know, …. And we got the paintbrushes and then Frank Sanders, you remember him, teacher up at the high school? Steve Mead, I hate to name names because I’m missing so many of them, because there were just dozens of them. They all rolled up their sleeves and went down there and we painted that thing from one end to the other. And Judd Andersen, of course, got involved and, you know, he was the handyman with the saw and the hammer. And we got the thing all cleared out, then we had to bring the stuff in, set it up. And I thought we did a pretty nice job and I, of course, in the meantime we had ah, been soliciting new members and I always remember that Perry Thal who was a member of the National Guard, he called me up one day at work and he said, you know, can the National Guard help you out in any way down there? And I said, boy, you sure can. We got to move everything from our rooms, from the    Masonic   Temple  building, down there and what I mean, we had some big stuff up there. Sideboards, oh I don’t know, everything up there. So they did, they brought their trucks and those guys moved all that stuff down there to the museum. Of course, then we had our committees and set up the various rooms, got the thing going. I stayed on as director, general … for two years. And ah, I devoted hundreds and hundreds of hours … And ah, of course, I had the girls out the office too, they did a lot of …work for me out there. And typing and ah, that. Of course, we had to write so many letters thanking people and request this and requesting that. I got them out there to design this little brochure we’d pass out. I don’t know whether they still use that or not.

I: They have a brochure, I don’t know if it’s the same one or not.

R: I suppose they’ve changed it over the years, but anyway got that. And I can remember Paul Helmer was the secretary of the Chamber of Commerce and we were a couple days before opening date, and he came over and he took one look and he just was just so elated, he couldn’t get over what we had done in this museum. And then when he saw our brochures, he said, “I want 10,000 of em.” I said, “wait a minute, Paul.” I said, “we don’t have that kind of money.” He said, “I’ll pay for it, I’m pay for em, just get me them.” He said, “I’m going to send them to every town in    Michigan  .” And he did. He sent them, mailed them all out. And which was good advertising.

I: Yeah.

R: And then we had open house, so everybody, townspeople. And it was in the afternoon, a Sunday afternoon, we had a terrific turnout. And from then on, it has just been up, up, up and, of course, Morey Wilson was very helpful through those periods too. And then when I left, well he took over. And so as I say, I can’t begin to name people, because there were so many that got involved to help, it was just terrific. But it is very gratifying. I look at it today what it is and what they are doing as compared to what I saw that first night we went into that Grand Trunk depot.

I: And, hopefully, what we can keep doing.

R: Yes. Well, I think that it has got a good start now. I’m sorry that millage didn’t pass.

I: It hurt.

R: It hurt, but we still getting quite a lot of money there. When I think that we raised, while I was in there, we raised $20,000 and when I left, there was still $5,000, with $20 in the treasury, so we did what we did to get the thing started on $15,000.

I: That’s pretty good.

R: Yeah. But I’m real proud of it. I think we started the waterfront on its way. I don’t think the waterfront would be what it is today, if it wasn’t for that museum.

I: I agree.

R: Yeah.